A question to women about women in games

[Mewd]

So, Penny-Arcade's post the other day gives me the slight impression that there's some mild controversy about Bayonetta.

Like many female game protagonists, she's sexualized. This revives old and exhausted debates about exploiting female characters and pandering towards the male demographic with fan-service.

Now, while the above has been talked about to death already, what is actually interesting about the controversy is that some people feel that the game should get a free ticket because the game as a whole is absurdly over the top. The sexuality is PART of the stylization and not necessarily something to get uppity about. (This can be seen as an excuse to look at boobs, but I digress)

This article Penny-Arcade linked to, written by a woman, discusses this and ends on a positive note saying that the protagonist can even be considered empowering for women. This, while not necessarily representing general female opinion, raises an interesting question in my mind.

What do women want in female protagonists?

Most media, and especially video games, are slanted towards the male audience. The pandering is obvious and a bog standard marketing tactic. This inspires a creative backlash, and sometimes we get female characters explicitly engineered to go against the norm and represent a more wholesome, more independent or intelligent female role model.

On some level, though, I expect that these counterpart female characters are still made for the male audience. There's a certain taste of deliberation, that the character was made so that the male viewer could relax and think himself more sophisticated or better than those who prefer the more indulgent and excessive female characters. Maybe I'm wrong, but when and if a character is made in reaction to something I believe that means there is an ulterior motive and that may mean the character is less honest. Less Just Who They Are.

So I'm asking any women who might be reading this: What makes a good female character? Is there a difference between a good male or female character? What kind of feminine distinctions, if any, can really make a character stand out for you? Are there things that can make a distinctly female character interesting in a way that males can't be? Do you have different expectations on a character based on their gender? If a game character is acting as your avatar, how do you want them to represent you? Alternatively, WHAT do you want them to represent? Can sexuality be appropriate for the character? What kind of role model would you like out of a female main character? Do you know what you want? Does any of this actually matter?

I'm curious!

[Chu]

She's calm, cool, and collected without being a bitch. She's friends with the main character without having a crush on him. In fact, she fell in love with another man and harbors romantic feelings for him, and handles it (and a related tragedy) maturely. She's not sexualized at all. She's a regular playable character! Especially amidst all the genki girls and fanservice bait, and even though I've decided Final Fantasy is really not a series for me anymore, Freya is completely freaking awesome.

See also:

Although I guess technically we're supposed to think of Ammy as genderless.


The best Zelda sidekick. Sure, she starts out pretty mean, but that just makes her more interesting. And then her gradual change in character made her incredibly endearing.


This newcomer to the Monkey Island series could have been annoying, but Morgan turned out to be really likeable. She's a competent fighter and plays a good foil to Guybrush.


Guybrush's wife Elaine has always been cool and funny. It's just too bad she doesn't get a chance to show up that often.

Okay I promise I'll stop editing this post now. (Edit: I lied, I had to fix a broken image.)

[TK Flash]

Mewd, I'm more curious as to why you think only women can judge what makes a "good female character." Are you so mesmerized by titties that you can't tell a thoughtful characterization from an irresponsible one?

Edit: The pendulum really swings both ways. All the males are idealized too: how often do you see the uber-badass rooster man with an invincible ego? Real males have insecurities and flaws. I don't recall the exact words, but I remember a scene in the movie As Good As it Gets where the lady lead asks where are the "normal" men, and the answer is, they don't exist.

[nadia]

I like female characters who can exist without igniting debates over the physical aspect of female empowerment.

I don't mean I want to shy away from this kind of discussion; I mean I like it when a female character is down to earth and proportioned like a human being, to the point that nobody feels the need to debate whether or not her big tee-tees and tiny waist are unrealistic and offensive.

The Secret of Mana discussion thread reminded me of a girl character I really like: Krissie, the leader of the Resistance. She took up the mantle when her father was killed, she gets the job done (other than let's trust the Emperor, hur hur), and she looks as normal as you can expect in a world filled with pink-haired Sprites. One NPC kid mentions that he hears Krissie crying at night sometimes, which I take more of a sign of humanity than weakness.

[Chu]

I don't think Mewd was trying to say that the opinions of any males on the subject is invalid.

[Brickroad]

Usually when a game has a female protagonist it is because there is some reason or justification for her femininity... even if it's something shallow like "this game needs a sex symbol, and girls are sexy" or "this game needs a vulnerable hero, and girls are vulnerable".

My favorite female heroes are the ones that break this mold by starring in a game that doesn't care what gender its hero is. Samus Aran fits this mold really well. So does Jade from BG&E. Shepard from Mass Effect only half counts, for obvious reasons.

[estragon]

Originally Posted by TK Flash

The pendulum really swings both ways. All the males are idealized too: how often do you see the uber-badass rooster man with an invincible ego?

I'm not sure this is a good example of "the pendulum swings both ways." In both cases (the attractive, sexualized female and the not particularly attractive or sexualized badass male), these are the escapist fantasies of a very particular kind of heterosexual guy.

Both are unrealistic, but they are also both unrealistic in that they adhere to desires of one particular group. Men in a game designed to appeal to heterosexual women or gay men would look pretty different than these "badass rooster" men.

[Pombar]

Bishounen leads in JRPGs, then?

[Grant]

Originally Posted by estragon

Both are unrealistic, but they are also both unrealistic in that they adhere to desires of one particular group. Men in a game designed to appeal to heterosexual women or gay men would look pretty different than these "badass rooster" men.

[Reinforcements]

Originally Posted by Chu

The best Zelda character.

Fixed.

For good female characters, see also: Samus Aran, Tetra, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, and Alex from Half-Life 2 if you can ignore the fact that she falls in love with Gordon for no reason.

[teg]

I kind of give Bayonetta a free pass because it's very up front about what the character is there for, and that all of the sexiness tropes are just there to titillate the player. In example:

Why does Samus Aran wear the Zero Suit?
It provides basic life support and unrestricted movement in situations where wearing the Varia Suit is impossible blah blah blah
Why does Bayonetta wear her outfit?
Because it's sexy.

It's the difference between watching an action movie with sexy actors doing sexy things and just watching porn. You don't have to like it, but at least it's not pretending that it's not just trying to titillate audiences.

Of course, I really don't know much about the franchise so I could be ENTIRELY WRONG.



I kind of wish I played more games like this so that I would have more to say, since I've got a pretty unique perspective on this.

[Monda]

I just like cute girls, whether they're damsels in distress or pummeling baddies.

[estragon]

Originally Posted by Pombar

Bishounen leads in JRPGs, then?

Sometimes!

[TK Flash]

Originally Posted by Chu

I don't think Mewd was trying to say that the opinions of any males on the subject is invalid.

Okay, so I misconstrued the the thread title, and the last paragraph of the OP.

Originally Posted by estragon

I'm not sure this is a good example of "the pendulum swings both ways." In both cases (the attractive, sexualized female and the not particularly attractive or sexualized badass male), these are the escapist fantasies of a very particular kind of heterosexual guy.

Both are unrealistic, but they are also both unrealistic in that they adhere to desires of one particular group. Men in a game designed to appeal to heterosexual women or gay men would look pretty different than these "badass rooster" men.

I was trying to say that there are unrealistic ideals of both genders, and I definitely agree with you about the one particular group part. To be honest with you I was thinking of Balthier specifically, who is a badass hottie with all-around appeal and is just as unrealistic as your average battle panty-wielding sorceress. But yeah, I think you're pretty much perfectly right.

[bloodyinkpen]

Originally Posted by Brickroad

My favorite female heroes are the ones that break this mold by starring in a game that doesn't care what gender its hero is. Samus Aran fits this mold really well. So does Jade from BG&E. Shepard from Mass Effect only half counts, for obvious reasons.

I give Mass Effect more credit on account of the female Shepard's badass voice acting makes her significantly more imposing, heroic, and well, command-worthy than the male alternative.

I agree pretty strongly with this. I completely and utterly expected Midna to be an irritating little furry sidekick character and was more or less struck defenseless by how charming she turned out to be.

In fact I was surprised at how endearing I found almost all of the characters in Twilight Princess to be.

[Pombar]

Balthier's unrealistic? He seems pretty dapper to me, but I've met men equally so. All the badassery (stunts and the like) isn't about gender, it's about what people want from videogame characters/action heroes. Gender doesn't enter into the equation that you want to be playing as someone who can do amazing things. And besides those, Balthier's not very unrealistic at all.

[TK Flash]

I was talking more about attitude and atmosphere than backflipping and wall-kicks. I think certain characters exhibit an unnatural control over their emotions, and Balthier is one of them. Real men are weird, and tend to have character flaws or insecurities.

[Brickroad]

Originally Posted by bloodyinkpen

I give Mass Effect more credit on account of the female Shepard's badass voice acting makes her significantly more imposing, heroic, and well, command-worthy than the male alternative.

Which is the only reason I mention her at all. Other games with a "blank hero" that give you a gender option (Dragon Quest 4, Mega Man ZX, later Pokemon games I think) don't even warrant a comment.

eta: Well, Mass Effect's amazing writing certainly helps too. Here's a video game hero that works wonderfully whether male or female, "paragon" or "renegade", or (and this is unique in vidjagames, I think) gay or straight.

I have to constantly remind myself that "my" Shepard isn't the only one. Whenever I look at the game box I think for a moment, "Who the hell is that guy?"

[bloodyinkpen]

There are definitely "sexy dudes" in the games. Moreso in Japanese works, with your bishounens and your Snakes and Raidens sneaking around in oh-so-tight Buttock Suits. But it is fair enough to say that they tend to be masked better than overtly sexy ladies, though whether that falls on the producer's shoulders or the audience's is the kicker.

People just don't react the same way to a ruggedly handsome, improbably proportioned man in a skin-tight bodysuit the same way as a stunningly beautiful, improbably proportioned woman in the very same garb. One we completely brush off, the other we either ogle or cry foul, depending on our position on the matter.

[Makkara]

Originally Posted by Mewd

Is there a difference between a good male or female character?

That's an interesting question, actually. A few years ago I had an idea that might shed some light on it. I envisioned an RPG where you could choose the gender of the main character; nothing uncommon about that, but the thing was that you simultaneously determined the gender of every other character in the game. A character that is female when you play a male is male when you play a female. Everything but the character art and pronouns would stay the same. It would be interesting to see if that would work (obviously biological details about reproduction would have to be avoided).

[KCar]

Someone posted a video somewhere else on this site about Japan's growing "History Girl" trend - girls who become obsessed with some fantasy of Japan's historical eras, as filted through the lens of video games and anime. They interview one in particular, and the narrator introduces her over footage of her playing some video game (Samurai Warriors? I didn't recognize it) where a handsome young man is weaving a bladed staff through 20+ bodies with a look of unperturbable calm on his face. In the course of the interview, this young woman admits that what attracts her to those previous eras is that the men of this era don't seem as strong as those in previous ones (at least, insofar as they are portrayed in Japanese historical fantasy). Because she found the notion of these "strong" men attractive, she turned to "history" as a means of escape.

It is absolutely true that most video game power fantasies originate from a male perspective, and the images of both men and women in those roles correlate to male power/female sexuality. I think it's important to bear two things in mind: for one, masculine images are every bit as skewed as female ones in these games, and are probably just as unhealthy, if for different, less politically charged reasons; for another, it is more than possible for audiences to subvert fantasies that come from "other" perspectives (which, honestly, I think Leigh Alexander is trying to do most of the time).

To elaborate on the last point, Bayonetta is a strong example. Kamiya has admitted that he's basically cartooning his vision of the ultimate woman - she is entirely a sexual fantasy. However, within that vision there is more than enough room for women to find some aspects that they would like to identify with and find empowerment within - to do so requires a bit of work, and a bit of imagination, but it's possible. The trend in the last decade of burlesque shows as a kind of statement of empowerment is precisely this kind of female self-investment into, and transformation of, male fantasy.

Now, I want to be clear; this in no way excuses the predominance of male power fantasy in video games. It's still a political issue, and has much to do with why gaming has traditionally been a "male" pursuit. I just wanted to point out that in all of these issues, the fantasies at play are never static; they change with every person who interacts with them and invests a certain portion of themselves into enacting them. I think sometimes this fact gets overshadowed when speaking of gender politics, especially in gaming.

[Violentvixen]

Originally Posted by nadia

I like female characters who can exist without igniting debates over the physical aspect of female empowerment.

I don't mean I want to shy away from this kind of discussion; I mean I like it when a female character is down to earth and proportioned like a human being, to the point that nobody feels the need to debate whether or not her big tee-tees and tiny waist are unrealistic and offensive.

The Secret of Mana discussion thread reminded me of a girl character I really like: Krissie, the leader of the Resistance. She took up the mantle when her father was killed, she gets the job done (other than let's trust the Emperor, hur hur), and she looks as normal as you can expect in a world filled with pink-haired Sprites. One NPC kid mentions that he hears Krissie crying at night sometimes, which I take more of a sign of humanity than weakness.

This is pretty much exactly what I came in to post.

I've never played Beyond Good and Evil but I got the impression that was a good female character as well. Same with Mirror's Edge. The clothes were form-fitting so they made sense in the situation, although I've only played the demo so maybe that changed.

[Adrenaline]

I still don't see why Samus is always considered a great female character. You see her in her underwear as a reward for doing well and she has no personality.

[tungwene]

I look for what I'd look for in any good character, is the character a certain gender or acts a certain way just to fulfill a certain purpose or do his/her actions remain true to that character. Bad: Rinoa. Good: Chris Lightfellow. Rinoa just sticks out as a sore thumb compared to the rest of your playable cast. She doesn't have a military background so you wonder how she can conceivably keep up with SeeDs trained from childhood in your party and why they don't boot her out when her impetuousness gets her in to trouble and you have to rush in to save her. She's just there to drive the plot forward by needing rescuing and being the naive and sweet love interest. Chris's actions never stretch outside her believability as the leader of a group of knights. She's a little inexperienced at it because she just inherited the position but it's not used as an excuse to wave away blunders like her men attacking a village without her knowledge and her killing a young child. She deals with these issues as a responsible leader but is also slightly shaken because she's not a cold hearted ice queen even if its a facade she adopts in front of her men.

Character designs are a different topic from good writing. I don't want to see female characters wrapped head to toe in burlap sacks as a result of developers not wanting to offend/thinking it will appeal to women. I want them to look as exciting and interesting as everything else in the games they star in. I haven't played Bayonetta but my impression is her wardrobe and personality is as ridiculous as the rest of game so I think I would have fun with it.

[bloodyinkpen]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

I still don't see why Samus is always considered a great female character. You see her in her underwear as a reward for doing well and she has no personality.

Foul. She has subtle personality (in the games that matter) and that's what makes her good. In the original, Super Metroid, Prime, etc., they never throw it in your face that she's a woman (unless you really dedicate yourself to the game put in the time and effort to get a special speed-run ending) and the queues about her personality were vague, subtle, but telling when they appear (particularly scenes with the hatchling near the end of SM). She's just a rocking ass-kicker protagonist like any other action game you might play except she just happens to be female underneath that armor.

The waters have gotten muddied, sadly, with all her navel gazing in Metroid Fusion and the increasingly exploitive use of her Zero Suit in recent games, but when Samus is done right she is a wicked cool badass in a powersuit that takes down armies of space monsters and that's damn cool with me.

[Grant]

Originally Posted by bloodyinkpen

She's just a rocking ass-kicker protagonist like any other action game you might play except she just happens to be female underneath that armor.

In which case, the question stands. If she is not distinctly or even identifiably female, how can she be a great female character?

[ASandoval]

Originally Posted by Grant

In which case, the question stands. If she is not distinctly or even identifiably female, how can she be a great female character?

She's got some maternal instincts that kick in for the baby Metroid, but that's the most I can really say.

[patrick]

Leigh Alexander has a good followup piece here.

My (male) perspective is that oversexualized women will turn me off of a game. I'm 27 and single, but I date and I'm looking for a relationship. Maybe if I was a teenager it would appeal to me more, but when I see a slutty female character now, it's just embarrassing. Mainly it tells me that the game in question isn't good enough to stand on its own merits, and has to resort to sex to sell copies.

[ASandoval]

Originally Posted by patrick

Leigh Alexander has a good followup piece here.

My (male) perspective is that oversexualized women will turn me off of a game. I'm 27 and single, but I date and I'm looking for a relationship. Maybe if I was a teenager it would appeal to me more, but when I see a slutty female character now, it's just embarrassing. Mainly it tells me that the game in question isn't good enough to stand on its own merits, and has to resort to sex to sell copies.

What constitutes overtly sexual though? Lara Croft was very brazenly propaganda when Tomb Raider first debuted, but a lot of female gamers consider her a strong female protagonist because of her fierce independence and general bad assitude.

Then you got Bayonetta which... is just a good action game. I feel like complaining about that is like complaining about racism in Punch-Out!!!

[Zef]

Originally Posted by Grant

In which case, the question stands. If she is not distinctly or even identifiably female, how can she be a great female character?

I think she's more of a ground-breaker than a trend-setter. She was one of the first female character (if not the first, on consoles) who was there as a) a player avatar who could b) be an ass-kicking one-person army. These two aspects didn't usually go together in console games, and they still don't.

However, at first, that was the extent of her development. She wasn't really a character as much as she was an icon. Now, what comes after that? What do her creators do with her, now that she's established herself? How does she become an actual character with a personality, goals, and flaws? What drives her?

She was designed as female in order to buck the stereotype --great! Does this matter anymore? Is it important for her to maintain her femininity, or is her femininity irrelevant in her character development? If the former, how can her femininity be put into play in a franchise defined as solitary exploration/combat missions? If the latter, would artificial attempts to make it relevant interfere with or hinder her iconic persona?

Despite Prime, Zero Mission, and Fusion's attempts, she's still a cypher, and the player base might be projecting qualities onto her that she doesn't necessarily have simply because she's female. See below.

Originally Posted by ASandoval

She's got some maternal instincts that kick in for the baby Metroid, but that's the most I can really say.

But it's not necessarily "maternal." A male character with a bond to said infant would've reacted the same way.

Also, it's possible that years and years of nostalgia have made us all read too much into her relationship with the baby Metroid. It's just as likely that Samus went after Ridley because she didn't want the Pirates to breed Metroids again, not because of any emotional attachment. And at the end, when the baby Metroid sacrificed itself for her, who's to say she didn't go "Oh well, that was the last one. Now I can use this new weapon to end the Pirates once and for all!" instead of "Rar you killed my baby rar!"